Glenn,
I guess it is about time I add my two cents worth as I seem to be one of the “Senior Members†you are complaining about although I am not sure what a “Senior Member†is. Old? Lots of photographic experience? Long time club member? Or perhaps the LPA members that contribute most to the club?
I will comment on some of your issues:
Competition Definitions. A couple of years ago LPA did not have any written competition categories or definitions. The Competition chairperson was free to create a category. Such as “Woodâ€, “Things you loveâ€, “Motionâ€, “Colorâ€, “Peopleâ€, etc. No definitions were provided. The photographer was free to decide if his photo fit the category. I brought up this issue in a board meeting a couple years ago and went ahead with adding categories and definitions to our web site. This was based primarily on the existing AV Fair rules with some modification using S4C rules because some members enter the same photos in all three competitions. The rules probably should be updated but up to now no one has suggested any changes. As far as the definition of “Close Upâ€, it was purposely written that way to give the photographer a lot of leeway. I was the one that updated the definition for the AV Fair rules book because the old definition was not clear. Again if someone has better suggestion for our rules, bring it up at the board meeting or via email to the board members and competition chairperson.
RAW. I don’t know who told you that you must shoot in RAW! RAW processing has been taught in several of our workshops but I have never heard anyone say that no “self-respecting photographer would ever think of taking photos in just JPGâ€! LPA has had professional portrait photographer workshops such as Hank Morris’ that always shoot in JPEG because they have control of the lighting and do not need to do any serious post processing. Obviously RAW has some advantages otherwise it would be not be incorporated in all DSLRs and some Point and Shoot cameras. For a “Fine art photographer†it definitely has advantages.
Board Meetings. The purpose of board meetings are to steer the club’s direction. We are always asking for members to attend and provide new ideas. That of course does not mean that all ideas will always be accepted, that is life. Since resigning the presidency last June I have not attended many board meetings as the agendas are not being published before the meetings anymore. I also have my issues with how the club is run! But if you want to see changes made, don’t give up and when necessary volunteer to take some of the many jobs required. I know that there are only a handful of members doing most of the work. How do we change that situation?
Field Trips. Many of the multiday field trips are scheduled for week days because of crowding on weekends. However, we have had many one day field trips on weekends. Go to the past events section at: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lpaphotography.org/Calendar/PastEvents/PresentYear.html">http://www.lpaphotography.org/Calendar/ ... tYear.html</a><!-- m --> to see for yourself. We are always asking for members to lead field trips and we need a Field trip Chairperson. If you have a place in mind, bring it up at the board meeting.
Workshops. LPA has had several “beginners’ workshops†over the years. Tylene is having one next week and his had them before. John Shedrick is always asking for workshop suggestions. Again if you have any ideas, submit your suggestions
Discussion Group. You have done a good job running and reporting on the weekly discussion group meetings. When you talked about forming a “beginners†group I questioned how beginners could only teach each other. I suggested that if questions come up at your meetings that could not be answered by the beginners then you could invite a more experienced member to address the questions at the next meeting. I would come as I am sure many other “senior†members would be happy to help.
I do not agree with your premises that:
[i]“- The senior members just don't care about the newer members.
- The senior members like the feeling of power (knowledge being power) and the ability to hold that power over others.
- The senior members are trying to stifle competition by discouraging newer members or cheating them out of information they need to be competitive.
- The senior members have a God complex and refuse to accept the newer members until they've received the appropriate amount of praise from the newer members.â€[/i]
I have not seriously seen these negative characteristics in anyone since I joined LPA in late 2004 but maybe I suffer from myopia! If I have given that impression it was unintentional. My reason for joining LPA was to get inspiration from other members, learn more about photography and help others. If I was one of the “Senior Members†who turned away from you at a meeting it was because I was busy setting/taking down the equipment (for which until Jim Pemberton volunteered to help I mostly had to do myself each meeting even when I was president!). You suggest that other “beginners†share your feelings, if so they should respond to this forum. However, we need positive suggestions, not just complaints.
Who do i speak too regarding becoming fieldtrip chairperson, to find out exactly what needs to be done??...hopefully this will turn a few things in a positive direction...we havent had any one day weekend fieldtrips in awhile.....let me know please...I am willing to step up to the plate...
A good start is to Contact President Dave Anderson or Vice President Sue Craft.
President: Dave Anderson
<!-- e --><a href="mailto:dmanderson4340@yahoo.com">dmanderson4340@yahoo.com</a><!-- e -->
Vice-President: Sue Craft
<!-- e --><a href="mailto:sue@suecraftphotography.com">sue@suecraftphotography.com</a><!-- e -->
President: Dave Anderson
<!-- e --><a href="mailto:dmanderson4340@yahoo.com">dmanderson4340@yahoo.com</a><!-- e -->
Vice-President: Sue Craft
<!-- e --><a href="mailto:sue@suecraftphotography.com">sue@suecraftphotography.com</a><!-- e -->
Dennis,
Thank you for your informative and measured response.
Competition Definitions. Your explanation of how we got the category definitions doesn't exactly answer my original question but does provide insight into how we got what we have. And, perhaps more importantly, it acknowledges that my question was asked. Many of our newer members take these competitions very seriously and anguish over their entries. You can see it in their writings on this forum and hear it in their voices during our meetings and workshops. If I can do a quick Google and come up with a rough explanation of "Close Up" then it seems that the more experienced competetive members of the club should be able to acknowledge that there are valid questions by the newer members and write up a paragraph or two to interpret the written definitions. Specifically, those interpretations could include scope (examples of what is and isn't acceptable) and recommendations for how to improve the chances of winning.
RAW. My memory isn't perfect but I think it was you who said something like "Why would you shoot anything else?" Not exactly a "you have to" but I can't count how many times the more visible (senior, experienced, whatever) members have stated that RAW is the only way to go while denigrating JPGs. I can't remember any of those same people ever saying that JPGs are good enough for some people and in some circumstances. Even if it wasn't actually said in so many words the message has been absolutely clear, you "have" to shoot in RAW. I think that the more visible members of the club should carefully consider their words and recognize that newer members of the club may feel that they are in the wrong place if the use of JPGs is not acknowledged as a good medium for some people and for some uses.
Board Meetings. I realized before I went in there that it might not be accepted, but the swiftness and finality of it's demise took me by surprise. I didn't start with a lot of detail, thinking that I could provide detail when asked. When you killed it you mentioned that previously the club had set up tables for display and such and that it didn't work out well. All I was hoping for was a simple get-together to take photos, similar to our local field trips. As I recall there were no questions, it just died on the spot. If I were to present something else to the board I have no idea how I would present it to give it some chance of being accepted. The only suggestion I can make is for the board members to recognize that not everyone is a great orator and that some ideas should be considered on their own merit rather than on the strength of the presentation.
Field Trips. I've been on a few field trips and have enjoyed them, though to be honest I really didn't know what I should be doing. I'm with Sharon (re her post of March 19, 10:22) in that I could benefit from following a more experienced member around (preferably one who can talk to my level and be willing to tell me more than one way of doing things).
Workshops. I hope to attend Tylene's workshop this next week because, even though I'm getting fairly familiar with my camera, there's always more to learn, even in the basics. I spoke earlier about uses for the camera other than professional work and competitions and it got me thinking about how little we have to offer those photographers. I like the photoshop, HDR, light painting and other high tech workshops but I would also like to see more where the subject is getting better photos without all the gadgets and software. I think that Tylene's upcoming workshop will cover some of this and I may have some better suggestions afterward. It may be helpful to poll the members, especially those who are not regular participants, what they would like to see more of. I've seen advertisements of various organizations and schools offering beginning photography to the public. Perhaps those instructors could offer up some suggestions as to what the general public is asking for.
Discussion Group. Thank you. I'm always amazed at how many people come up to me and thank me for my writeups, even if they can't attend themselves. Because of my early experiences with, what I consider, close-mindedness by some of the more experienced members, I was leary of having them dominate the meetings and lecture to the less experienced attendees. I've learned that this is a good way to kill an idea group. Your first visit you did dominate to some extent but your second visit was much more relaxed and participative. In the meetings we often cover the same topics repeatedly. Some of the more expert club members might find this tedious, especially when they've already found what works well for them. But for the less experienced members these repetitions bring to light variations that weren't obvious before, giving rise to new ideas of how to use the information. Many of these new ideas may not be useful in and of themselves but they get the creative thought processes going. Hence, my invitation "Come one, come all, but come with an open mind."
Attitudes, feelings, perceptions and other psychological artifacts are the subjects of entire libraries. In previous postings I've described some of my negative experiences in the club and I want to say that there have been many more good experiences, or I wouldn't still be a member. I can't take a photograph of "attitude" or measure it. But I can say that, at least to me, it seems that some of the members, including you, have been growing less patient and less understanding of the needs of the less experienced members. It's almost as if those intent on being professionals and highly competetive can't understand why everyone else can't, or won't, advance their skills faster. This has led to a growing "them vs us" rift. Perhaps the more competetive members could not try so hard to drag the others along. Perhaps creating upper and lower divisions would free up the more competitive members to do what they want and go at their pace while the others could go at their own pace. Splitting into two separate clubs would be an extreme measure but, if some form of accomodation can't be reached then it might be the best solution to better satisfy everyone's needs. And, yes I agree, everyone should speak for themselves, though the number of active participants on this forum is actually a very small percentage of the club. And I wonder how many newcomers have dropped out over the years because almost all of what the club does is so high-end.
Lastly, I think that the club needs to do some damage control. Even if I deserved to be dumped on at last Tuesday's meeting (which I don't think I did) it probably looked to many in the room that, if you ask a question, you become fair game for verbal attacks by the more experienced members. And if you complain all you can expect to receive is a chide that you were also to blame because you must have done something to deserve such abuse. I, for one, won't be asking any more questions and I will recommend to others that they not risk asking questions (because of this and past experiences). I would be surprised if the number of other people asking questions doesn't drop dramatically. If the club wants to encourage questions at meetings, especially by newcomers, then I think that the club needs to assure it's members that this was unusual, inappropriate, and that it will not be allowed to happen again. Members need to be assured that, if such an exchange does start, the club leadership will immediately stop it and seek to find a resolution off-line.
Glenn
Thank you for your informative and measured response.
Competition Definitions. Your explanation of how we got the category definitions doesn't exactly answer my original question but does provide insight into how we got what we have. And, perhaps more importantly, it acknowledges that my question was asked. Many of our newer members take these competitions very seriously and anguish over their entries. You can see it in their writings on this forum and hear it in their voices during our meetings and workshops. If I can do a quick Google and come up with a rough explanation of "Close Up" then it seems that the more experienced competetive members of the club should be able to acknowledge that there are valid questions by the newer members and write up a paragraph or two to interpret the written definitions. Specifically, those interpretations could include scope (examples of what is and isn't acceptable) and recommendations for how to improve the chances of winning.
RAW. My memory isn't perfect but I think it was you who said something like "Why would you shoot anything else?" Not exactly a "you have to" but I can't count how many times the more visible (senior, experienced, whatever) members have stated that RAW is the only way to go while denigrating JPGs. I can't remember any of those same people ever saying that JPGs are good enough for some people and in some circumstances. Even if it wasn't actually said in so many words the message has been absolutely clear, you "have" to shoot in RAW. I think that the more visible members of the club should carefully consider their words and recognize that newer members of the club may feel that they are in the wrong place if the use of JPGs is not acknowledged as a good medium for some people and for some uses.
Board Meetings. I realized before I went in there that it might not be accepted, but the swiftness and finality of it's demise took me by surprise. I didn't start with a lot of detail, thinking that I could provide detail when asked. When you killed it you mentioned that previously the club had set up tables for display and such and that it didn't work out well. All I was hoping for was a simple get-together to take photos, similar to our local field trips. As I recall there were no questions, it just died on the spot. If I were to present something else to the board I have no idea how I would present it to give it some chance of being accepted. The only suggestion I can make is for the board members to recognize that not everyone is a great orator and that some ideas should be considered on their own merit rather than on the strength of the presentation.
Field Trips. I've been on a few field trips and have enjoyed them, though to be honest I really didn't know what I should be doing. I'm with Sharon (re her post of March 19, 10:22) in that I could benefit from following a more experienced member around (preferably one who can talk to my level and be willing to tell me more than one way of doing things).
Workshops. I hope to attend Tylene's workshop this next week because, even though I'm getting fairly familiar with my camera, there's always more to learn, even in the basics. I spoke earlier about uses for the camera other than professional work and competitions and it got me thinking about how little we have to offer those photographers. I like the photoshop, HDR, light painting and other high tech workshops but I would also like to see more where the subject is getting better photos without all the gadgets and software. I think that Tylene's upcoming workshop will cover some of this and I may have some better suggestions afterward. It may be helpful to poll the members, especially those who are not regular participants, what they would like to see more of. I've seen advertisements of various organizations and schools offering beginning photography to the public. Perhaps those instructors could offer up some suggestions as to what the general public is asking for.
Discussion Group. Thank you. I'm always amazed at how many people come up to me and thank me for my writeups, even if they can't attend themselves. Because of my early experiences with, what I consider, close-mindedness by some of the more experienced members, I was leary of having them dominate the meetings and lecture to the less experienced attendees. I've learned that this is a good way to kill an idea group. Your first visit you did dominate to some extent but your second visit was much more relaxed and participative. In the meetings we often cover the same topics repeatedly. Some of the more expert club members might find this tedious, especially when they've already found what works well for them. But for the less experienced members these repetitions bring to light variations that weren't obvious before, giving rise to new ideas of how to use the information. Many of these new ideas may not be useful in and of themselves but they get the creative thought processes going. Hence, my invitation "Come one, come all, but come with an open mind."
Attitudes, feelings, perceptions and other psychological artifacts are the subjects of entire libraries. In previous postings I've described some of my negative experiences in the club and I want to say that there have been many more good experiences, or I wouldn't still be a member. I can't take a photograph of "attitude" or measure it. But I can say that, at least to me, it seems that some of the members, including you, have been growing less patient and less understanding of the needs of the less experienced members. It's almost as if those intent on being professionals and highly competetive can't understand why everyone else can't, or won't, advance their skills faster. This has led to a growing "them vs us" rift. Perhaps the more competetive members could not try so hard to drag the others along. Perhaps creating upper and lower divisions would free up the more competitive members to do what they want and go at their pace while the others could go at their own pace. Splitting into two separate clubs would be an extreme measure but, if some form of accomodation can't be reached then it might be the best solution to better satisfy everyone's needs. And, yes I agree, everyone should speak for themselves, though the number of active participants on this forum is actually a very small percentage of the club. And I wonder how many newcomers have dropped out over the years because almost all of what the club does is so high-end.
Lastly, I think that the club needs to do some damage control. Even if I deserved to be dumped on at last Tuesday's meeting (which I don't think I did) it probably looked to many in the room that, if you ask a question, you become fair game for verbal attacks by the more experienced members. And if you complain all you can expect to receive is a chide that you were also to blame because you must have done something to deserve such abuse. I, for one, won't be asking any more questions and I will recommend to others that they not risk asking questions (because of this and past experiences). I would be surprised if the number of other people asking questions doesn't drop dramatically. If the club wants to encourage questions at meetings, especially by newcomers, then I think that the club needs to assure it's members that this was unusual, inappropriate, and that it will not be allowed to happen again. Members need to be assured that, if such an exchange does start, the club leadership will immediately stop it and seek to find a resolution off-line.
Glenn
It seems that most of the interest in discussing this thread has dropped off. But before it goes out of mind I wish to elaborate on a point.
I've mentioned the RAW vs JPG subject before. It may, to some, seem like such a minor issue but it's like an iceberg, there's far more to it than meets the eye.
Most people (in the Antelope Valley, world, etc) shoot in JPGs and think nothing of it. In our club, if you ask most people if they shoot JPGs or RAW they'll look down and mutter "JPG" as if they're ashamed of it. But when you say "That's OK, so do I." you can see the relief in their faces. The attitude that comes across from the more competition oriented members, the ones many members look up to, is that if you're not shoot RAW you're not a "Real Photographer," just some hack. It's almost as if shooting RAW is a badge of the elite (them-vs-us). Club members should not feel embarrased to use, or admit that they shoot in JPG, but they are. This lowers their self esteem and this should be a red flag to everyone that there is a real problem here.
There are many advantages to shooting in JPG. The software inside digital cameras that adjust the brightness, contrast, and white balance and generat JPGs is excellent. This software has been developed with the advice of expert photographers and refined over the years to give very good photos over a wide range of conditions. It would take years of experience for someone to become that good. The vast majority of the photos taken as JPGs will be very suitable for portfolios, photo albums, family photos, posting to the internet, journalism, and even most competitions. Plus, the photographer doesn't really need to put out the money for expensive software, such as Photoshop, or take the hundreds of hours it takes to become proficient. If they want to make simple adjustments, crop, or resize for the internet they can use the software that came with the camera or low-cost/free software that's available. This frees up time and money that can be used on things like lenses, practicing composition, and other aspects of photography that will give them more return on investment. Even if they do use Photoshop or Elements they can still do great things with their JPGs. In most cases they won't even be able to tell the difference. It's only when they get to the high-end competitions and big-time professional work that I think RAW begins to have the advantage over JPGs.
In my opinion the over-the-top emphasis on shooting RAW has hurt the club in a number of ways. It has reduced the self esteem of many members. I'll admit that, even though I'm thoroughly happy with working with my JPGs, I've been one of those reluctant to admit it or challenge the more competitive members openly about it. Hurting members like this should not be acceptable in any club. It drives them to spend money that they don't need to, wastes their time trying to justify those expenditures, and increases their frustration when they don't see enough advantage for them to justify the outlays. It probably has driven out past members who felt they couldn't measure up. It probably has turned away potential members because they feel that they just can't afford what's needed to become a "Real Photographer" and caused them to go home and stick their camera in the closet. This can't continue if we're going to be an "open" club.
Our more competitive members may disagree with me or say that they openly tell people that JPGs are OK but the fact that other members are embarrased to admit that they shoot JPGs shows that their implied message is clear, "Real photographers shoot RAW!" This emphasis on RAW is driving a wedge between the more competitive members and the the rest of the members as well as a wedge between the club and the general public.
I recommend that the club take an official position that, during general meetings and workshops, JPGs are the standard format and anyone recommending working in RAW must also identify the advantages of shooting in JPG and the disadvantages of shooting in RAW. Also, the more competitive members may want to start a Competition Workshop, similar to the Portrait Workshops, where they can work on the finer points of competition that most of the other members are not interested in or don't have the time and resources to participate in.
I've mentioned the RAW vs JPG subject before. It may, to some, seem like such a minor issue but it's like an iceberg, there's far more to it than meets the eye.
Most people (in the Antelope Valley, world, etc) shoot in JPGs and think nothing of it. In our club, if you ask most people if they shoot JPGs or RAW they'll look down and mutter "JPG" as if they're ashamed of it. But when you say "That's OK, so do I." you can see the relief in their faces. The attitude that comes across from the more competition oriented members, the ones many members look up to, is that if you're not shoot RAW you're not a "Real Photographer," just some hack. It's almost as if shooting RAW is a badge of the elite (them-vs-us). Club members should not feel embarrased to use, or admit that they shoot in JPG, but they are. This lowers their self esteem and this should be a red flag to everyone that there is a real problem here.
There are many advantages to shooting in JPG. The software inside digital cameras that adjust the brightness, contrast, and white balance and generat JPGs is excellent. This software has been developed with the advice of expert photographers and refined over the years to give very good photos over a wide range of conditions. It would take years of experience for someone to become that good. The vast majority of the photos taken as JPGs will be very suitable for portfolios, photo albums, family photos, posting to the internet, journalism, and even most competitions. Plus, the photographer doesn't really need to put out the money for expensive software, such as Photoshop, or take the hundreds of hours it takes to become proficient. If they want to make simple adjustments, crop, or resize for the internet they can use the software that came with the camera or low-cost/free software that's available. This frees up time and money that can be used on things like lenses, practicing composition, and other aspects of photography that will give them more return on investment. Even if they do use Photoshop or Elements they can still do great things with their JPGs. In most cases they won't even be able to tell the difference. It's only when they get to the high-end competitions and big-time professional work that I think RAW begins to have the advantage over JPGs.
In my opinion the over-the-top emphasis on shooting RAW has hurt the club in a number of ways. It has reduced the self esteem of many members. I'll admit that, even though I'm thoroughly happy with working with my JPGs, I've been one of those reluctant to admit it or challenge the more competitive members openly about it. Hurting members like this should not be acceptable in any club. It drives them to spend money that they don't need to, wastes their time trying to justify those expenditures, and increases their frustration when they don't see enough advantage for them to justify the outlays. It probably has driven out past members who felt they couldn't measure up. It probably has turned away potential members because they feel that they just can't afford what's needed to become a "Real Photographer" and caused them to go home and stick their camera in the closet. This can't continue if we're going to be an "open" club.
Our more competitive members may disagree with me or say that they openly tell people that JPGs are OK but the fact that other members are embarrased to admit that they shoot JPGs shows that their implied message is clear, "Real photographers shoot RAW!" This emphasis on RAW is driving a wedge between the more competitive members and the the rest of the members as well as a wedge between the club and the general public.
I recommend that the club take an official position that, during general meetings and workshops, JPGs are the standard format and anyone recommending working in RAW must also identify the advantages of shooting in JPG and the disadvantages of shooting in RAW. Also, the more competitive members may want to start a Competition Workshop, similar to the Portrait Workshops, where they can work on the finer points of competition that most of the other members are not interested in or don't have the time and resources to participate in.
"Maybe Palmdale needs a new photoclub.." Sharon
This reminds me of the fierce competition between Palmdale and Lancaster about 20 years ago which caused, among other things, the AV to have two auto centers and the AV Mall to reside in Palmdale rather than Lancaster. If we create a new club that is more public oriented we may be able to get free use of the Palmdale Library or some other public location to hold meetings. Thanks for the suggestion.
This reminds me of the fierce competition between Palmdale and Lancaster about 20 years ago which caused, among other things, the AV to have two auto centers and the AV Mall to reside in Palmdale rather than Lancaster. If we create a new club that is more public oriented we may be able to get free use of the Palmdale Library or some other public location to hold meetings. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Thank you, for addressing the problems and establishing a dialogue that can be very helpful, this is the effective way, ( I don’t know of any other more effective way) to solve the problems, and that is if we have the desire to solve it or even admit it, in that case there is many ways to not only solve the existing problems but also avoid the growth of new ones, I am not a good writer, this is my third language, but I am trying my best, I will be happy if you correct me.
Behnaz
You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.
Abraham Lincoln,